the jws stopped by my house a couple weeks ago on a saturday morning.
i knew that with others most likely waiting for them out in the car they probably did not then have much time to engage in any serious conversation.
so i let them talk while i feigned interest in what they had to say.
Vanderhoven,
Thanks for the kind words. The toughest part about writing a book for JWs has got to be knowing that very few of them will ever read it. Since they are not allowed to read any Bible based publications not written by the Watchtower Society. But hopefully some of their non-JW friends and relatives will pick up a copy of your book to learn how they might talk to JWs.
the jws stopped by my house a couple weeks ago on a saturday morning.
i knew that with others most likely waiting for them out in the car they probably did not then have much time to engage in any serious conversation.
so i let them talk while i feigned interest in what they had to say.
Problem,
You wrote: kicking the men out of your home for perverting the word of God after you invited them in and they came back.....was a dick move.
Those two were almost certainly not coming back again anyway. And I had just read them Paul's words saying those who preach a Good News different from that which the apostles preached are to be condemned. So I codemned them for doing it. I wanted to impress upon them the seriousness of what they were doing, corrupting the Good News of Jesus Christ.
The truth is, I didn't want to talk to either of them again anyway until they considered the possibility that they were following false teachers. And I told them that. I showed them some "tough love" and that is exactly what I think they both needed.
the jws stopped by my house a couple weeks ago on a saturday morning.
i knew that with others most likely waiting for them out in the car they probably did not then have much time to engage in any serious conversation.
so i let them talk while i feigned interest in what they had to say.
Island man,
You wrote: Don't confuse objectively following facts that lead to a conclusion, with subjectively evaluating facts as to corroborate a bias. Atheists have done the former. Theists typically do the latter.
Really? So you don't believe that many atheists, who by definition have already decided that there is no God, look at the world around them for more evidence to support their preconceived opinion and quickly discount any evidence they might find to the contrary?
Give me a break.
the jws stopped by my house a couple weeks ago on a saturday morning.
i knew that with others most likely waiting for them out in the car they probably did not then have much time to engage in any serious conversation.
so i let them talk while i feigned interest in what they had to say.
Doc,
I was only quoting the words of Christ who clearly advised his followers not to spend their time discussing sacred things with those who do not appreciate sacred things. He gave that advise for a reason. He indicated that most often such discussions only result in Christians being insulted and attacked.
Foolishly ignoring Christ's advise on this matter, I have in the past had many long discussions with atheists. Almost every time I have done so I found myself wishing I had heeded his advise. For almost every time I have engaged in a discussion of sacred things with an atheist I discovered that their only reason for talking to me was to try to make all Christians look foolish. I found that no amount of evidence for the existence of the Christian God, no matter how strong, was ever sufficient to help them consider the possibility that the Bible is the word of God. Their minds and hearts were simply not open to that possibility.
So out of respect for the advise given to me by Christ, and because of my own limited time, I now avoid discussions (i.e. debates) with atheists. I don't think that makes me judgmental. It only makes me a follower of Christ. For he is the one who gave his followers this advise. And from my own experience I have found it to be very good advise.
the jws stopped by my house a couple weeks ago on a saturday morning.
i knew that with others most likely waiting for them out in the car they probably did not then have much time to engage in any serious conversation.
so i let them talk while i feigned interest in what they had to say.
nowwhat?, You wrote: i am going to have to explain what the thousand year reign of christ and the "new heavens and earth" is about ..
I'm not sure why. We don't need all the right answers to show JWs that many of their answers are clearly wrong. And because they are, the men who run the Watchtower Society cannot be what they claim to be, God's sole channel for dispensing biblical truth.
Like JWs, many Christians are now expecting that Jesus Christ will soon judge this world. And many of them understand that following this judgment that he will rule the entire world for a literal 1,000 years. And many of them understand the words "a new heavens and a new earth" to apply to this time. So I'm not sure why you see a conflict here. Maybe it has to do with what will take place during the 1,000 year reign of Christ.
JWs may ask, "If there is now only one hope for Christians, as the Bible tells us there is (Eph.4:4-6), and all Christians will rule as kings and priests with Christ for 1,000 years, who will be left on earth for Christians to rule over?"
The reason Jehovah's Witnesses ask this question is because they teach that God will soon kill everyone on earth except true Christians. Fortunately, the Bible does not teach that. I believe the Bible indicates that when Christ returns he will judge only the Christian world. After all, two-thirds of earth's current population has never even heard the Good News of Jesus Christ, including billions of people in lands like China and India. The Watchtower Society has long taught that God will soon kill all of these people. I think they are wrong. This does not sound like the God of love, justice and mercy I worship.
One thing that leads me to believe this is an incorrect understanding of Scripture is that that the Bible tells us that "Judgment begins with the house of God." (1 Peter 4:17) Jesus also said those who will rule as kings with him will "judge the 12 tribes of Israel." (Luke 22:30) And the Bible calls Christians "the Israel of God." (Gal. 6:16) To me this indicates that when Christ returns and draws all true Christians to himself (Matt. 24:31), they will then determine who among those who have heard the Good News of Jesus Christ and not taken it to heart are deserving of death. "The 12 tribes of Israel," spoken of in Luke 22:30, I believe refers to all those who have heard the good news about Jesus Christ long preached by Christians. Remember, the literal "12 tribes of Israel" had all heard the Law of Moses, but few had taken it to heart.
Remember too that it was only the nation of Israel and its capital city of Jerusalem which were judged in the First Century, not the entire world, after those in Jerusalem who heeded Christ's words of warning had escaped. And First Century Jerusalem has long been understood to picture the Christian world, or as Jehovah's Witnesses call it, "Christendom."
If this understanding is correct, that Christ is returning to judge only the Christian world, then Christians who all have the same "one hope" will then have plenty of people to rule over as they serve as kings with Christ for 1,000 years. And they will also then have plenty of people to help come to know the true God as they serve as His "priests." For that is, after all, what priests do.
There are other ways to understand God's clearly stated intentions to have the meek inherit the earth (Ps. 37:11), and His intentions to have all Christians rule with Christ for 1,000 years, than to change the Good News preached by the apostles which offers the same "one hope" to all Christians. (Eph.4:4-6)
By the way, most translations of the Bible tell us that even those who serve as kings and priests with Christ will do so, "on the earth." (Rev. 5:10) If this is the correct translation of the Greek, and it certainly appears to be, then "heaven" for Christians may simply represent a position of spiritual authority, not a physical location. The NWT is nearly alone in translating Rev. 5:10 as, "over the earth" rather than "on the earth." It does so, I believe, to support the Watchtower Society's two classes of Christians doctrine.
the jws stopped by my house a couple weeks ago on a saturday morning.
i knew that with others most likely waiting for them out in the car they probably did not then have much time to engage in any serious conversation.
so i let them talk while i feigned interest in what they had to say.
Ann, One of these guys was in his 20s. The other in his 30s, probably a MS and an elder wannabe. They both appeared to be life long JWs.
the jws stopped by my house a couple weeks ago on a saturday morning.
i knew that with others most likely waiting for them out in the car they probably did not then have much time to engage in any serious conversation.
so i let them talk while i feigned interest in what they had to say.
iCeltic, I was not judging you. I was only being cautious because I was warned by Christ to be cautious when dealing with people who have no appreciation of sacred things. Jesus asked, "Why do you call me Lord if you do not do what I say?" (Luke 6:46)
Certainly atheists very often have no appreciation of what is holy because they think, as you stated, that there is "no Jesus or god." So for now I am cautious because my experience with atheists on the internet thus far with how they often treat Christians has caused me to be cautious.
the jws stopped by my house a couple weeks ago on a saturday morning.
i knew that with others most likely waiting for them out in the car they probably did not then have much time to engage in any serious conversation.
so i let them talk while i feigned interest in what they had to say.
Thanks for the warm welcome everybody. Well, almost evcerybody. iCeltic I assume you are an atheist. I am not. I am an ex-JW Christian.
I feigned interest in what the JWs were saying at my door because I had heard it all before but I wanted to gain the opportunity to talk to them further because I cared about them. And I thought I might be able to reach them with the true gospel of Jesus Christ and by so doing help them find a better life, a life free from having to obey all of the burdensome and foolish rules and regulations of the Watchtower Society. Just as someone had reached me.
JWs should be ashamed of what they are preaching because they claim to be preaching what the apostles taught and it can be easily proven that they are not doing what they claim. I make no claims that you can easily prove to be false. You might think I am wasting my life believing in the God of the Bible because you contend He does not exist. But you cannot prove your contention.
Not too long ago I too was a skeptic. But I found strong evidence that Jesus Christ is indeed the Creator of the universe and the Savior of the world. Maybe I will share it with you sometime. When I am convinced that you are sincerely looking for such evidence. In the meantime I will be mindful of Christ's words, "Do not cast your your pearls before swine or give what is holy to dogs. For if you do they may trample them under their feet and turn aound and tear you to pieces." (Matt. 7:6)
the jws stopped by my house a couple weeks ago on a saturday morning.
i knew that with others most likely waiting for them out in the car they probably did not then have much time to engage in any serious conversation.
so i let them talk while i feigned interest in what they had to say.
I forgot to mention that during our discussion one of the JWs protested, saying that the "Good News" Christians are supposed to be sharing with people is about "God's kingdom." He said that a kingdom is a government. So he said that "the good news of the kingdom" which Christ said would be preached in all the earth must be about more than just Jesus' death buying us God's forgiveness for our sins and a resurrection from the dead to be with him. He said "the Good News of the kingdom" must be about the establishment of this kingdom government and what this government will do for us and for the earth in the future.
When he told me this I told him he was wrong. I told him that a kingdom is not a government. I told him that a government is only part of a kingdom. I told him that the primary dictionary definition of a kingdom is, 'a territory or group of people ruled by a monarch.' (Vocabulary.com)
I pointed out to him that when Herod told the daughter of Herodias that he would be willing to give her 'up to half his kingdom' he was not offering to share with her his royal authority and governmental responsibilities. He was offering to give her much of what he owned and much of what his government controlled. (Mark 6:22,23) For Herod's kingdom, like all kingdoms, was far more than just a government. His "kingdom" included everything that was under the control of his government.
I told the JWs that we should not understand "God's kingdom" to be simply "a government." We should understand the words "the kingdom of God" to refer, not only to the government of God's kingdom, but also to all people who now consider themselves to be subjects of the King of God's kingdom, Jesus Christ. For by calling Jesus Christ their King they have placed themselves under the authority of Jesus Christ. And by so doing they have become a part of God's kingdom. For they have become a part of the "group of people ruled by" its King. So the words "the kingdom of God" should be understood as referring to God's people being ruled by God's Son.
I then explained to them how we should understand the phrase, "the Good News of the kingdom." I told them those words refer to the same "Good News" that has always been proclaimed by the subjects of God's kingdom, that Jesus Christ's sacrificial death paid the price for all of our sins and bought eternal life for everyone who accepts him as their Lord. I told them that the "Good News OF the kingdom" should not be understood as being "good news ABOUT the kingdom" but as being the "Good News which comes FROM the kingdom" and the "Good News which BELONGS TO the kingdom," just as "Jesus of Nazareth" came from Nazareth and "the seat of Moses" belonged to Moses. (Matt.26:71; Mark 1:9; Matt. 23:2)
I also told them that their "God's kingdom is a government" understanding cannot be reconciled with the way the term "the kingdom of God" is often used in the Bible. And neither can it be reconciled with its synonymous term, "the kingdom of heaven," which Bible scholars tell us Matthew used instead of the term "the kingdom of God" to avoid offending many Jews who did not like the name "God" used unnecessarily, since Matthew's gospel was written primarily for Jewish readers.
For instance, in Mark 4:30-32 and Luke 13:18,19 Jesus compared "the kingdom of God" to a very tiny mustard seed which would grow into a tree with large branches providing birds a lodging place. This parable makes sense when we understand that "the kingdom of God" refers to God's people ruled by God's Son. For they were a very tiny group to begin with located in only one very small area of the earth. But today Christians number in the billions and reside in every nation of the world. I told them that we can, in much same way, understand Christ's words when he compared "the Kingdom of God" to "yeast" which was put into a large batch of flour and soon spread "all the through the dough." (Luke 13:20,21)
Today the words "God's people ruled by God's Son" is another way of describing Jesus Christ's worldwide body of believers, or the Christian church. A church which has for nearly two thousand years attracted and become the home of both good people and bad people. For this reason Jesus Christ said "the kingdom" would become like a net which, after being tossed in the sea, would "catch all kinds of fish" both "good fish" and "bad." (Matt. 13:47-50) I told the JWs that this parable makes sense if we understand that the term "God's kingdom" refers to God's people being ruled by God's Son, but that it makes no sense if we understand that the words "God's kingdom" refer to a heavenly government.
the jws stopped by my house a couple weeks ago on a saturday morning.
i knew that with others most likely waiting for them out in the car they probably did not then have much time to engage in any serious conversation.
so i let them talk while i feigned interest in what they had to say.
The JWs stopped by my house a couple weeks ago on a Saturday morning. I knew that with others most likely waiting for them out in the car they probably did not then have much time to engage in any serious conversation. So I let them talk while I feigned interest in what they had to say. I then said, "I find all you just told me to be very interesting. But I have to be leaving in just a few minutes and you probably do too. Can you stop back at another time when we both have more time to talk?" We then made an appointment to get together again last week.
When they returned I invited them in. I sat them down. I poured them both a glass of iced tea. I then asked them to remind me why exactly they had stopped by last week. When they told me they had done so to share with me the "good news of the kingdom" I asked them to explain to me just what that means. I asked them, "What exactly is this 'good news'?"
I then let them talk. They then went on to tell me how God intends to soon bring peace to the earth and make the earth a paradise. They never mentioned the name of Jesus Christ, and of course never said anything about his giving his life to buy us God's forgiveness for our sins.
I then asked them why the "good news" they just shared with me included nothing about Christians going to heaven.
I then listened again as they told me about how there are now two classes of Christians, very few of whom will go to heaven, and how the vast majority of faithful Christians will live on a paradise earth and be ruled over by the relatively few Christians ("144,000") who do go to heaven.
I then asked them if the "good news" they just shared with me is the same "good news of the kingdom" which Jesus told his disciples to preach.
I then listened to them as they told me that they believed it was in fact the same "good news of the kingdom" that Jesus said he wanted his followers to preach.
I then asked them if they believed that the "good news" which they just shared with me was the same good news which Christ's apostles preached in the first century. I waited for their answer.
They answered, "Yes."
I then read to them a few verses from the Bible which tell us of the "good news" preached by Christ's apostles and what exactly that "good news" was all about. Passages such as Acts 5:42; 8:35; 10:36,39,42,43; 20:2; Rom. 6:5 and 1 Cor. 15:1-4, 42-44,49. All these verses tell us that the "good news" preached by the apostles was all about "Jesus Christ." It was all about how he was the promised Messiah and how his death bought us God's forgiveness for our sins and bought eternal life for all who accept Jesus as their Lord. I showed them that the "good news" preached by the apostles never once mentioned a paradise earth. The "good news" preached by the apostles was all about Jesus Christ, what his death did for us, and how his resurrection gives us the assurance of a resurrection to heaven much like his own.
I then pointed out to the JWs that the apostle Paul said he preached, "Jesus Christ and him crucified and nothing else." (1 Cor. 2:2) He never once preached about a paradise earth. He only preached about the death of Christ and what his death bought for us, God's forgiveness of our sins and eternal life with Christ in heaven.
I showed the JWs that the "Good News" preached by the apostles mentioned nothing about two classes of Christians, a heavenly class and an earthly class. For the Bible tells us that the apostles' "Good News" offered the same "one hope" for everyone who accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord. (Eph. 4:4) I then let them respond.
When they did their words condemned themselves. For they then told me that things have now changed. They said that when the apostles preached their version of the "Good News" in the first century things were different. They said that at that time everyone had the opportunity to go to heaven but today people no longer have that opportunity, today they said their "good news" offers people only an "earthly hope."
I then asked them to admit that, despite what they told me earlier, the "good news" JWs are preaching today is different than that which the apostles preached in the first century. For the "good news" that they just shared with me did not even mention Jesus Christ or his sacrificial death, even though Paul said he preached "nothing else." And their "good news" no longer offers the same "one hope" of a heavenly resurrection which the apostles offered to all those to whom they preached.
The JWs then said they may have slightly misspoke earlier when I understood them to say that the "good news" they now`share with others is exactly the same as the "Good News" that was preached by the apostles. They then admitted that their "good news" is a little bit different since we are now living so close to the end of this old world." They said, "The apostles lived at the time of Christ's first coming. But we today are living very close to the time of his return. So the good news we now preach is not really different than the good news the apostles preached. It is the same good news. Only its focus has changed due to the times we are now living in."
This guy seemed like a real spin master. I thought to myself, "Brooklyn (or is it now Patterson?) could really use this guy." But I did not let him off that easy. I reminded him that when I gave him a chance to share with me the good news of the JWs he did not once mention the name of Jesus Christ or tell me anything about his sacrificial death and what it bought for us. And I reminded him that he explained to me a completely different resurrection hope than the apostles shared with everyone they preached to. The other fellow, the quiet one, then chimed in, saying, "I don't mind admitting that the good news we preach today is somewhat 'new and improved' compared to the good news the apostles preached. Because we today have a better understanding of the Scriptures than Christians had two thousand years ago."
I then asked the other fellow if he agreed with that assessment. He said he did.
After getting them to admit that they are now preaching a "good news" that is different from the "good news" preached by the apostles I had them right where I wanted them. For they had now condemned themselves.
For now all I had to do is read to them the apostle Paul's words in Galatians 1:6-9, which I did.
There Paul wrote, "I am amazed that you are turning away so quickly and believing something different than the Good News. Really, there is no other Good News. But some people are confusing you; they want to change the Good News of Christ. We preached to you the Good News. So if we ourselves, or even an angel from heaven, should preach to you something different, we should be judged guilty! I said this before, and now I say it again: You have already accepted the Good News. If anyone is preaching something different to you, let that person be judged guilty!" (New Century Version)
I actually read this passage to them from their own Bible. It read very much the same.
I then told them that they both should be ashamed of themselves for 'changing the Good News of Christ,' by preaching by their own admission, a "different" good news, a good news that did not even mention Jesus Christ or his sacrificial death, and also by their own admission, a good news that directly contradicts the "one hope" teaching of the apostles. I then asked them to please leave my house and not return until they stop perverting the Good News of Jesus Christ. I told them that I will be glad to talk to them further if they are willing to consider the possibility that they are following false teachers.
They got up and left and seemed a little shaken up as they did. I have not yet heard back from any them. And I probably wont. But I planted some seeds which I hope will sprout later.
You may want to give this a try the next time JWs come calling. Request a return visit. Then ask them to briefly explain to you what their "good news" is all about. Then show them from the Scriptures that they are preaching "a different good news" than the apostles preached. And show them what Paul said in Galatians about anyone who preaches a "good news" different from the "Good News" which the apostles preached.
